Could you frankestein-it with a Prontor from an Isolette?
I guess if the location of the shutter release is the same they could be interchanged?
Re: Super Wester Rehab Questions...
Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2024 12:39 pm
by PFMcFarland
The problem I've found with sourcing parts from other shutters is that even if the make and model of the shutters are the same, whomever designed the camera will introduce differences in the way they work depending on the construction of the camera they are mounted on. A medium format folder with a coupled rangefinder is sort of a rare bird in the first place, so how the shutter works with the rest of the system determines how the levers interact with each other. So, lots of times it is almost impossible to make a one-for-one parts swap. The NKK #oo with 1/300 speed is quite different from any other NKK shutter. I opened up an old shutter once that someone had mangled a spring thinking that would fix the problem, but it eventually broke off. The shutter was manufactured somewhere around 1934, and I searched everywhere for another one like it, but no luck. Wound up replacing the complete shutter with a slightly newer version.
Your spring might not be broken, though the fact it was laying loose in the shutter doesn't bode well. It could be it's just a little bent out of shape, and whomever was inside that shutter before you did not get it back on the mounting post correctly. It could have also gotten bound up in the works before you found it and is now slightly out of shape so that it doesn't hook on the anchor tab correctly. It could be it needs to be flat, and instead has a downward, upward, or sideways bend, or vice-versa. It may also not have enough tension and will have to be reformed a bit (by increasing or decreasing the diameter of the circle, depending on the direction that force is applied). But you have to make that determination when you find out where it is supposed to be mounted.
Shutter springs are amazing in that they have several properties that determine how they are designed. The easiest ones to fix are the ones like yours that are separate from any lever. The ones that are integrated into a lever are the worst to repair, and usually demand a replacement of the entire lever.
The problem I've found with sourcing parts from other shutters is that even if the make and model of the shutters are the same, whomever designed the camera will introduce differences in the way they work depending on the construction of the camera they are mounted on. A medium format folder with a coupled rangefinder is sort of a rare bird in the first place, so how the shutter works with the rest of the system determines how the levers interact with each other. So, lots of times it is almost impossible to make a one-for-one parts swap. The NKK #oo with 1/300 speed is quite different from any other NKK shutter. I opened up an old shutter once that someone had mangled a spring thinking that would fix the problem, but it eventually broke off. The shutter was manufactured somewhere around 1934, and I searched everywhere for another one like it, but no luck. Wound up replacing the complete shutter with a slightly newer version.
Your spring might not be broken, though the fact it was laying loose in the shutter doesn't bode well. It could be it's just a little bent out of shape, and whomever was inside that shutter before you did not get it back on the mounting post correctly. It could have also gotten bound up in the works before you found it and is now slightly out of shape so that it doesn't hook on the anchor tab correctly. It could be it needs to be flat, and instead has a downward, upward, or sideways bend, or vice-versa. It may also not have enough tension and will have to be reformed a bit (by increasing or decreasing the diameter of the circle, depending on the direction that force is applied). But you have to make that determination when you find out where it is supposed to be mounted.
Shutter springs are amazing in that they have several properties that determine how they are designed. The easiest ones to fix are the ones like yours that are separate from any lever. The ones that are integrated into a lever are the worst to repair, and usually demand a replacement of the entire lever.
PF
Yeah, I was hopeful, but to your point, it would require me to find an identical shutter. There are a bunch of Autorol cameras on eBay, but having never actually proven this camera (and specifically, the lens), I'm not sure I want to cannibalize another coupled rangefinder 6x6, vs just fixing that one.
Could you frankestein-it with a Prontor from an Isolette?
I guess if the location of the shutter release is the same they could be interchanged?
Dammit, Pablo, that's one hell of an idea. So, I have a Speedex Super R (Isolette III) that has been sitting in the basement for, dunno - four or five years? Was gung ho on it, even bought a nice burgundy bellows from Sandeha. Took an act of congress to separate the cells, just an Apotar, but the rangefinder is also glued solid. So I kind of lost interest. Anyway, has a Prontor-SV. Just checked, and the cells from the Super Wester are the same size and thread pitch. The shutter release is in the same place. With just a few modest, aesthetic differences (like, the cable release socket, in the same position, is a little bit different shape), the shutter bodies seem identical. I need to measure the depth to see if the spacing on the cells is the same, but eyeballing it looks the same. The only thing I'll need to do, assuming equivalence, is mount the plate that engages the stop on the rangefinder for the Wester. And possibly shim the new shutter (the Nishida shutter has a cloth shim on it). But definitely a non zero chance it will work. I hadn't wanted to part out the Speedex, but I think finding a beater Isolette with a Prontor-SV is going to be easier than fabbing a spring and actually installing it in a week...
Stay tuned.
Re: Super Wester Rehab Questions...
Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2024 2:44 pm
by titrisol
Let me check if I have one I can send you
I'm sure I have a speedex with Vario you could have but not sure if I have one with prontor/compur
Check the colimation and you might need to add/remove those paper spacers to get to full infinity
The Isolette 3 is not hard to repair, and the RF is easy to degum
Let me check if I have one I can send you
I'm sure I have a speedex with Vario you could have but not sure if I have one with prontor/compur
Check the colimation and you might need to add/remove those paper spacers to get to full infinity
The Isolette 3 is not hard to repair, and the RF is easy to degum
Sounds good - thanks!
I've lost count of how many Special Rs/IIIs I've fixed. TBH, I lost focus and motivation. It took every bit of three months of soaking in P'Blaaster to get the cells apart. After that, I just kind of didn't care. I really don't like using IIIs, have no use for uncoupled rangefinders (which is why the latest purchases have been the Wester, Super Regent, and Retina II). Always enjoy working on them, especially with colorful bellows when they're done. Just kind of waffled on it.
Okay, pulled both shutters. They are identical in dimensions, which isn't entirely surprising, I guess. A few hiccups I realized while doing this:
The lenses, while compatible in mounting, are different focal lengths. The Welcon is 75/3.5, the Apotar is 85/3.5. So the aperture scales will not jive. If I can get the lens to focus, which I haven't wrapped my thinking around yet, I'll come up with a little cross reference for f/stops.
The registration pin on the reverse is in the opposite position on the Prontor, but it actually is tapped for both places. I can't move the pin yet, because I can't see the everloving thing. I so need new glasses. I have the lighted magnifier arriving Saturday, so this is now a weekend project.
The rangefinder stop plate is going to take some engineering. On the Nishida, there's a cutout and stop on the aperture control plate that allows movement around the rangefinder stop, that is screwed the the shutter case. Not sure how to cobble that together on the Prontor, but cobble it together I will. Open to suggestions, though.
So, not a drop-in plug-and-play swap, but seems doable. I'm sure there are a lot of niggly bits that will arise, but I'm feeling much better about this than I have in the last 24 hours.
Good luck with the ‘new’ project! The hardest part is gonna be the locking screw for keeping the shutter into the plate (if any) and the plate from the NKK for moving the rangefinder up and down.
Re: Super Wester Rehab Questions...
Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2024 12:31 am
by PFMcFarland
Going to need some perseverance to make that swap. Good luck!
PF
Re: Super Wester Rehab Questions...
Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2024 10:31 pm
by scott
Happy Monday, everyone. Weekend was full, no camera work at all, though my new lighted magnifier came in. No time this week, and we fly Friday. So, Super Wester is not coming on this trip. Which is fine - I have my G9X Mk II, which is easier and has proven to work great. So, I will not be swapping shutters (which I still think, in true Dr Frankenstein fashion, would have worked). I’m not convinced the original spring was broken, and might be made to work a little better. Otherwise, I work with an exemplary machinist who, I suspect, would love the challenge of fashioning a new spring. Or maybe I could figure it out. Dunno. But I will be putting the shutter to right, probably get a local leather guy to mod the case to a half case with a new strap, and start carrying it around. The Prontor will go back on the Special R, which I’m good with and am looking forward to seeing with the new bellows. Plus the Super Regent and the still-hasn’t-shipped Retina II. Also have an Argus C-2 that was given me, and Maddie has picked up a Brownie Reflex and some ilk of Fed for me overseas. None of these cameras have ever been shot (by me). Plenty of stuff to do.
So, more to come. I’m having knee surgery mid August (and likely again at some point again in August or September), so will hopefully have some good time to work on things.
Thanks for the help this far, folks. I will definitely need more soon enough.
Re: Super Wester Rehab Questions...
Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2024 1:55 pm
by scott
Howdy all -
Getting back to this camera, finally. May be going to NYC next week to meet up with a girl we hosted when the kids were in high school (depending on knee recovery - going much slower than I'd anticipated). Would like to bring this camera with, or if I can't get it working, get ahold of a machinist I know at work who might be up to fashioing a new one (or, I might try it myself if there's a decent enough YouTube video). Anyway, had a look at it again.
For review, here's the spring that came, well, unsprung: Untitled by Scott, on Flickr
After some piddling, it seems like this is where the spring belongs (or, at least, what that spring should be articulating):
(Sorry for the shaky video - I'm filming this on my phone, operating the shutter one handed, videoing through a magnifying glass looking at the phone screen...)
I'm assuming I can remove the large brass screw the cocking level pivots on and hopefully remount that spring somewhere within. I've opened every Prontor-S (well, Prontor-SV) that I have, and they all cock based on kind of a star gear looking thing, not this configuration, so I don't have a model to go off of. Any suggestions on whether this looks about right?
Thanks!
Scott
Re: Super Wester Rehab Questions...
Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2024 8:35 am
by scott
Okay, have been chatting with Alex on flickr. I think this is the spring I need to reset. The link he provides in this block (the Vero tear down) is an entirely different design shutter, so I'm not really sure why he points to it.
Shutter swap by Scott, on Flickr
Untitled by Scott, on Flickr
Untitled by Scott, on Flickr